2.8: A Social Media Conversation Could Lead to Your Next Million Dollar Deal (Amy Jo Martin)
Sammi Reinstein: Hey, this is Sammi Reinstein and you're listening to Conversation Starters. On this show. We talk all about bringing conversations back to B2B marketing and selling, because if there's one thing we know about doing business in the revenue era, it's that the best customer experience wins. Through the power of our own conversations with Drifters, customers and special guests, we'll learn how to deliver a sales and marketing experience that puts the buyer first. Let's get into it. Welcome to Conversation Starters. This is our season finale. It's the last episode of season two.
Speaker 2: Yes. Season two in the books. It went fast.
Sammi Reinstein: It did. It did go fast.
Speaker 2: So if you haven't been through season two with us, this has been all about continuing the conversation. So season one, starting the conversation, season two, continuing the conversation, we talked to some great Drifters, some partners of Drift and some external guests, including one today.
Sammi Reinstein: Yes, I am really excited about our guest today. We saved a very special guest for last. We are wrapping up season two with Amy Jo Martin. Amy Jo is an author, speaker, founder, and CEO of Renegade Global. She's a podcast host of Why Not Now?, and innovation advocate. Her book Renegade Writes the Rules reveals the innovative strategies behind the social media success of today's top celebrities, brands and sports icons. In the book, Amy explains how successful social media strategies can lead to profitable results and why humanizing a brand social media presence is crucial to building brand loyalty. On today's episode, Amy Jo is going to walk us through how brands can be more human on social media and how to start and continue the conversation with social media. So let's get into it. Amy Jo, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Amy Jo Martin: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation.
Sammi Reinstein: Yeah, we gave a little bit of an intro, but I do also want to plug your speech that you gave at FLASH Miami, which was an event that Drift put on and we will link it in the show notes, because I think it'll be a great thing to look back on after this conversation as well. But I read the listeners some of your accolades in the intro and they're very impressive, but I do want to focus in on one aspect today for the conversation. And that is you are the author of the New York Times' best selling book, Renegades Write the Rules and to start off the podcast, I'd love to learn a little bit more about what inspired you to write the book.
Amy Jo Martin: Well, thank you Sammi and I thoroughly enjoyed my experience at FLASH in Miami. What a incredible day of learning and seeing the innovation that's happening among you and your customers. So absolutely Renegade. I mean the term renegade really is something that embodies who I am and always has since I was a young girl. And it's really about asking forgiveness instead of permission, when we bring our results with us, when we ask that forgiveness, because that tends to go over better and we have those in our back pocket. It's about getting uncomfortable and asking ourselves, why not now? Why not me? And we all have a choice to rewrite the script, rewrite the story, rewrite the rules for ourselves. Especially right now where so many dynamics going on in the world that encourage that and demand that innovation. So that's really the concept behind Renegade. And there's quite a few stories that dig back into it with some characters that helped me arrive at that book title.
Sammi Reinstein: I love that. And Amy Jo and I were talking a little bit about where she was located and I just seem like Austin, Texas is the right place for you, Amy Jo being a Renegade, being yourself.
Amy Jo Martin: It is absolutely the best. We celebrate individuality and community here in Austin, Texas. And I have a podcast called Why Not Now?, we actually had Matthew McConaughey come on, who is the mayor of Austin really, and he says," Everybody's welcome as long as you're yourself and that's the requirement." So you're welcome to come out and visit us in Austin. We're having some fun out here.
Sammi Reinstein: Be yourself in Austin, be yourself at work, rewrite the rules. I love it all. I'm going to come and visit Austin just so that I can experience that mentality. But I do want to dive deeper into something that you said in the book, and I'm going to quote you for a sec. You said," It is irrational and irresponsible to start a brand without a social media strategy today." And you wrote that book in 2012 and it's 2022 now. So 10 years later a pandemic happened, we all had to sort of change around our strategies. What role do you see social media playing today? And how has that changed for brands that are incorporating social media into their strategy?
Amy Jo Martin: That's a great question, Sammi, because although it has been a decade, that fundamental still rings true. How we arrive there, the technology we use and the advancements and shifts in the platforms, algorithms, human behavior has shifted a bit, but it is irresponsible and irrational to think that you can build a bridge and connection and relationship with your customer, your audience, without social communication. Because it really is just communication, it's not media. And that's something that hasn't shifted. When it's treated that way, when we treat it as a dialogue, a two- way street versus a monologue, so more like the telephone than the TV, then we're able to humanize our brands and build connections that convert, right? So as marketers, we know impressions don't always convert, but we love impressions because that's how we can count them and they go on our spreadsheets and they go on our dashboards and KPIs, but connection does convert. And so you can't connect without communicating. It's expected, it's demanded and you wouldn't not pick up your telephone in business, you can't not show up on social.
Sammi Reinstein: Yeah. And especially during a pandemic, when we're all home now, maybe we're not going to an event, that's connecting us in our communities. Everyone's online and that's where those communities live. So it's connecting with your customers and it's connecting your customers to each other and creating that community and being able to connect. I feel like back in 2012, maybe 10 years ago, a lot of the social online was like ebook, colon, ebook name, and just a link. And today I do totally agree with you. It's all about finding those connections and treating people like humans.
Amy Jo Martin: Absolutely. And you bring up such a good point, Sammi, in that a brand can such offer such value in just bridging a connection with two different customers or building community, as long as they're genuine about it, right?
Sammi Reinstein: Right.
Amy Jo Martin: So you have to really care to be go down that route and strategy. Because there's no chance in faking it. People will see right through. When it's done right, and we see it being done right with certain brands, the loyalty ladder that you're pushing your customer up, is so valuable because you're glue to deliver that value of other connections. So it's amazing how brand and community has become such an opportunity in this time and moment in brands building community and being a part of delivering value when, where, and how, our audience wants to receive it because the customer journey is upside down. It's shifted.
Sammi Reinstein: Yeah. And I'm sure you ran into loyalty and community a lot when you started your career at the NBA in social media and a lot of our listeners, B2B, SaaS, maybe they're thinking, what does that have to do with the NBA? But I think there's a lot we can learn from both B2C companies and people that have amazing fans like sports fans. What do you think that B2B marketers can learn from what you learned in your time at the NBA?
Amy Jo Martin: Oh, wow. I think of B2B and it actually being even more potentially advantageous and more efficient for D2C, because when look at how big this space is and how noisy and there are no geographic barriers. only bound by the speed of technology, it can be overwhelming because the algorithms are fickle and change by the minute of what's going to resonate. With B2B, you usually know your audience pretty well. Exactly who they are, exactly where they are, and there may not be as many of them as that mass approach that we have with B2C. So one of the things that I think about is, yes, I started my career working with a lot of big brands and entertainment properties working then in the NBA, but really I sat in a spot that was focused on our marketing partnerships and our sponsors and so I was responsible for finding touch points of natural integration versus interruption for those brands to work with us. And so I was more, I was both, looking at the direct fan and person who's going to purchase the ticket, purchase merchandise, watch on television, as well as the marketing partner. And in looking at the opportunity for sales teams to use social communication, to connect effectively at a deeper level, to transcend the what that straight to the who and straight the why, that's establishing a relationship at a completely different level that will change the trajectory of what happens next. So I think we all know that we're all craving that human connection right now, anyway. So if you can know exactly where your audience and targets are with intention and genuine effort and care, you can start to learn so much about someone and connect on different levels that aren't about the what, right?
Sammi Reinstein: Mm- hmm.
Amy Jo Martin: They're about the why and the who.
Sammi Reinstein: I really love what you said, integration, not interruption. That's so important. Anything that's coming along in the customer journey, doesn't feel like," Why am I going through this? Why am I taking this call? Why doesn't this person maybe know about who I am?" It's making sure you know who they are and making those transitions into content or events, and then post sales, those customer success calls totally seamless and it just feels like a part of the process.
Amy Jo Martin: Yeah. And I think too, we want to put data to this and ROI and everybody wants to monetize, which is fair.
Sammi Reinstein: Yep.
Amy Jo Martin: And I'm a big believer as a free time founder of realizing what does make money and what doesn't and how important that is, but I think it I have a company called Renegade and we work with women, female leaders, founders, executives, all over the globe, some of which, these founders and entrepreneurs and executives in sales, they're converting more through direct messages on social than they are from any other lead generation source. So the ability to build a relationship front of the house or above ground, and then start to date a lead and then convert through a DM, we're seeing multimillion dollar deals that are being converted and sparked through a direct message that then... Then you get to a meeting on the phone, so you really can't deny the ability to generate revenue through relationships. Just like," We'll be doing it on the golf course all for centuries. Decades for sure, maybe centuries."
Sammi Reinstein: Can you imagine, maybe writing... Maybe you could, because you were very much so on the forefront of this, but 10 years ago, if you had told your old self 10 years ago that people would be making multimillion dollar deals over LinkedIn DMs or whatever that is.
Amy Jo Martin: Well, here's the indicator. I totally saw this coming, not because I knew more, but because I was just living it and experimenting. I found my first investor through a direct message on Twitter. I mean, I found my husband through direct message on Twitter who lived in Australia. So I mean, we're talking all types of conversions. inaudible why there, I see it left and right, and we have access to everyone now, and you're only bound by your own creativity and willingness to put yourself out there. So yeah. But now it's at scale to your point, Sammi, it's just the way things are done.
Sammi Reinstein: I do also love the part in your book where you talk about social media's role in creating ongoing engagement. And in that social media success comes from keeping the conversation going, and that's what this podcast is all about. We're all about keeping the conversation going, starting meaningful conversations, and then continuing those. So how do we really keep someone engaged? Let's say they've started their first interaction on a social post, what is social media's role in that?
Amy Jo Martin: Well, understanding that the concept of connection compounds over time. So if we just even think of compound interest with financials, the longer you go, the more likely that return is going to become exponential. You never know the timeline exactly, so that's why it takes consistency. And that's one of the missing ingredients where people get frustrated. They may not see the response, the metrics, the engagement, the insights, the KPIs, and then they're out. Because they want a return now. They want to be able to put it in a report and ship it off to someone. And I think staying human is the key here. I think it's Albert Einstein that said," Not everything that counts can be counted. Not everything that count can be counted counts." And you can trust that process, that if you are making an effort with like- minded, like- hearted humans and delivering value, there will be a value exchange. Whether that's in the form of currency, loyalty, email acquisition, subscription, whatever it is, but you have to be listening loud enough to know that value is being received and it's actually valued, right? So listening loudly, which my Aussie shepherd outside the door, clearly listening to me loudly, you have to be willing to stay human and know when it's an art and when it's a science and also it's the Wild West again. Again, the algorithms and the business models behind these platforms have shifted. They all went public years ago, but I remember when they did and all of a sudden the stakeholders changed and the economics have shifted and sometimes it's what worked last Tuesday, may not work next Thursday.
Sammi Reinstein: Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned if you're listening loudly, there are some other components in the book that I'd love for you to just dive a little bit deeper on. So three specifically, three components to keeping our conversation going, you mentioned asking the right questions, listening to common answers and innovate by delivering value, how, when and where the audience wants it. So if you will, so indulge me, I would love to start with, ask the right questions, and what you mean when you say, ask the right questions.
Amy Jo Martin: So I was once speaking at a conference, this speaker before me said," It's not about finding the right answers. It's about asking the right questions." And again, I have a whole platform called Why Not Now?, other people want be seen and heard. So if you can make them feel special, you're on your path to connection, which leads to conversion. So questions and listening to the answer, that's data. That's a valuable data. Getting the other person to talk, joining a conversation versus trying to just start one from scratch, and listen and blend in. So asking those right question first. Secondly, that feedback loop, that iteration process is like lightning in a bottle when it comes to marketing and even product enhancements. And when we experiment, we can't fail. So we're constantly experimenting and refining and repeating. And the feedback loop organically out in the wild is likely going to be more valuable than if you had it in a controlled research setting, because people are going to be acting more natural and be more honest. And so I have a mentor that says," Amy Jo, the answers are on the street. They're not in a whiteboard session." So we can get in our brainstorm sessions and whiteboard sessions, all we want. But if we aren't listening to our customers on the street or online that are trying to tell us what we should do next, then we're just spinning our wheels, so yeah. Then delivering value when, where, and how your audience wants to receive it is the golden rule of social communication, but it's marketing and branding and that's your value prop. So if the customer isn't rooted in the center of that, and you're not coming to them, then you've lost because the customer journey now is even more competitive and upside down than it used to be, and convenience and customization, they're everything. So that's something that if anything that's become a level set among competitive sets where you now have small companies that are startups that are going quickly competing with the biggest brands in the world because of how they've been able to shift their delivery and customer journey. It's pretty fascinating.
Sammi Reinstein: It is really fascinating. And I do think as marketers, sometimes we can get bogged down in data and almost be blinded by it. The data is great and it's great to tell a story from it, but if your customers are telling you something on social, or they're telling you something through a survey or whatever that comes from that first party data that is valuable. They are telling you right to your face, you don't even need those hard numbers of acquisition or whatever that is at that point, if they're telling," This is what I'm interested in, these are my goals."
Amy Jo Martin: It's so valuable. See, I mean, if we think about it's valuable for predictive analysis of what's going to happen next, it's valuable for product research and product development, for marketing positioning. It's literal content what they say to us can be inaudible. It's a missed opportunity if we're not listening and capturing what people are trying to tell us.
Sammi Reinstein: Yeah. Yeah. And Amy Jo, before I let you go, you mentioned you're a three time founder, you have tried a lot of different types of things, and you did mention with social media, it can be hard to measure, but how do you think about monetizing social media or measuring and what are some mistakes you've made along the way?
Amy Jo Martin: Great. Well, I've made plenty of them. So where do we start? I think we learn what we need to teach though. And one of my biggest lessons is, as a classic brand and classically trained marketing person, who many people are that are listening, we have to let go of this concept of brands being perfect and polished and having extreme equity and they're static when we think of personal branding. So yes, our brands are logos. We know how much goes into that. However, and you don't jack around with it, right? We've got brand standards, but when it comes to humans, we're messy. We're making mistakes constantly, there's nothing static about us. So this concept of the fact that you don't brand yourself, you're yourself and that creates your brand, must be something we grasp onto, if we want to convert our personal brands, as well as even show humanity and humility in our logos, in our brands. So that's been something that if we put a facade forward where everything is perfect, that ROI is probably not going to be as strong as we would've liked. Because it's relatable and people don't buy it. For me personally, the ROIs come in so many different forms in terms of monetization. Sure leads, direct leads, connections, so on and so forth, but I think we also have to think about your ability to get creative of what monetization or conversion looks like for you. A telephone can be used for anything, absolutely anything else, right? Because you communicate, well, same with these channels. So if you think to yourself, that's not for me, there's nothing in it for me, you'd surprised if you start digging around of, well, what is it that you want? Because there are people with a click of a button away that could help you unlock doors, provide resources, information, exclusive content opportunity. So it's really democratize what's possible.
Sammi Reinstein: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Amy Jo Martin: Thank you.
Sammi Reinstein: I certainly learned a lot. If people wanted to learn a little bit more about you and about Renegade, where can they go?
Amy Jo Martin: First on social, because that's what we were talking about. I'm @ amyjomartin, A-M-Y-J-O- M- A- R- T- I- N and then renegade. global. That's where a lot of our work... We run the Renegade Accelerator and also work with corporate companies to really push that human innovation and humans, they're the heartbeat of the logo, they're the heartbeat of the brand. So we have to innovate first there before we can see any digital transformation, right? It starts with the humans. So I appreciate your time.
Sammi Reinstein: Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: You mentioned this at the beginning of the interview, but Amy Jo also joined us at Drift's FLASH event in Miami and the virtual event, the recordings will be linked in the show notes, but I think it's clear to see why Drift has had Amy Jo at an event and we had her back on this podcast because this woman loves a good conversation. She is great at conversations and her tips to social media and conversations were really great.
Sammi Reinstein: Yeah, Amy Jo is really impressive and I loved hearing her sort of Renegade mentality. I think it's something that can go into all different types of marketing, not just social media and just questioning different things that you're doing and trying to get the most out of it and making it a really human, conversational experience.
Speaker 2: Yes. As human as having a dog bark in the background of the podcast. Sorry to all you listeners, hope you didn't mind that Amy Jo's pup just wanted to be in the conversation too.
Sammi Reinstein: I don't blame the pup.
Speaker 2: Yes. Well, thank you so much for all our listeners following along on season two, we hope you enjoyed it. If you did, please leave a rating and review. You can also go to the landing page and chat to me and Sammi directly through the chat bot there. Otherwise we'll see you in season three in the late fall.
Sammi Reinstein: See you in the fall. Thanks so much for listening to Conversation Starters. If you liked this episode, please leave us a six star review by clicking the link in the show notes and hit subscribe, so you never miss another one. You can connect with me on Twitter @ sammireinstein and follow all of our shows at Drift podcasts.
It's the season finale of Conversation Starters (😱), and we're bringing it home by highlighting the power of social media in continuing the conversation.
Amy Jo Martin is an author, investor, founder/CEO, keynote speaker, and podcast host. She built out the Pheonix Suns' social media strategy, amassed her own Twitter following of over 900,000, and even met her husband through social media. Needless to say, Amy Jo is no stranger to the influence social media can have on a person's professional, and personal, life.
In this Season 2 finale, Amy Jo and Sammi discuss why it's so important for brands to invest in social media. They talk about how social media helps keep a prospect engaged with a brand, how Amy Jo thinks about measuring the success of social media, and why it's so important to stay human on social.
- (2:54) Why Amy Jo wrote Renegade Writes the Rules
- (5:20) The role social media plays for brands today
- (8:55) What B2B marketers can learn from the NBA’s social media strategy
- (14:38) Social media’s role in continuing the conversation
- (17:07) What “ask the right questions” means in social media
- (21:17) How Amy Jo thinks about monetizing social media
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